Assault Rushers, Flashbangs, and Smoke Grenades

[IsZi]

Okay, I've heard several complaints about Assault Rushers. I'm not talking about the people who are up to the arch in 15 sec, and then try to spot/snipe from there. I'm talking about the run-up-until-you're-within-combat-knife-range-and-shoot-OPFOR rushers. Of course, it is stated in the rules that Assault Rushing is frowned upon and all, but there is no declared, clear-cut rule put on this (and I do admint it would be a hard one to define, given the fact that there is always the possibility of an unintentionally-generated close-combat situation), and it has been the source of many a user-admin and admin-admin debate. Is there really anything we can do to make this issue a little more clear?

Also, the issue of flashbangs. Recently, I went on server 1 to play, got put on Assault, and had the idea to drop my flashbangs before switching classes so that I could pick them up and use them later. Some on the servers, an admin or two included, don't seem to agree that it is supported by the rules. However, at the same time, there is no rule AGAINST flashbangs either, and I remember Ace telling me in some of our early correspondence that there are no limitations applied to them. If that is to remain the case, might it not be appropriate to add something to that regard, in the Server Rules? I consider flashbangs to be about equal to smokes: Just another diversionary tool.

I have also heard that there may be changes regarding the two-smoke rule. As in: COMPLETELY DISALLOWING smokes. If this were a game in which there were much larger maps (Mountain Pass-sized or bigger), and with spawn points more spread out, and with a good bit more foliage, to where the game is a full-fledged Team Mahunt game, instead of an Assault vs. Defense game, I would be in support of this. However, it is not. In every map that we host, (And every map in the game, for that matter.) Assault and Defense both have strictly defined spawn areas, and therefore Defense will always know where Assault is coming from, and will know exactly which avenues of approach are available to them. That takes the element of surprise completely away from Assault, and smoke grenades are the only game-supported way to supplement that. Otherwise, a map like Bridge would be made about ten times as unbalanced as it already is.

All right, I'm done for now. Time to hear all your opinions.

8)

*Disclaimer: The above poll will not necessarily affect the Rules on our Servers. It only a poll generated out of curiosity.

[Bogey63]

For thoses of you that have served on active duty you know flash bang genades aren't stanard issue for a sniper or his look out.(OB) :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[Acedeal]

Coby is correct, there is no rule on FB's.

I do not regard FB's in the same class as smoke and nades.

While it does not clearly state the rules on FB's one way or the other. I have left the FB use open.

Guess i need to make some limitations on the use of FB's?
Before that though will wait and see what you girls have to say on the issue.

SMOKERS

I have also heard that there may be changes regarding the two-smoke rule. As in: COMPLETELY DISALLOWING smokes. If this were a game in which there were much larger maps (Mountain Pass-sized or bigger), and with spawn points more spread out, and with a good bit more foliage, to where the game is a full-fledged Team Mahunt game, instead of an Assault vs. Defense game, I would be in support of this. However, it is not. In every map that we host, (And every map in the game, for that matter.) Assault and Defense both have strictly defined spawn areas, and therefore Defense will always know where Assault is coming from, and will know exactly which avenues of approach are available to them. That takes the element of surprise completely away from Assault, and smoke grenades are the only game-supported way to supplement that. Otherwise, a map like Bridge would be made about ten times as unbalanced as it already is.

There are no proposed changes in the 2 smoke rule at this time.

2 smokes max for assault, 0 smokes for defense

3rd pillar rule is still in effect for defense on the bridge maps

[Red Catcher 46]

Very first thing you need to know about smoke, it's a 'Force Multiplier". In Army and Marine Corps doctrine, smoke can be used on both sides and like all things, there are advantages and disadvantages to using it. I do not like the idea of saturating the area with smoke to rush forward and do the hand-to-hand dance. But used to mask movement or (now listen close) to isolate the enemy, then smoke has it's function and purpose. Next time you want to fool around with a smoke grenade, throw one behind some one and watch how they become silhouted(sp). That person no longer has covering fire from his friendlies and 'standout' as a target.

The US Army paid over $6 million for this game to be developed not only as a game but also as a recruiting tool. I cannot imagine that the programmers did not use Army doctrine/guidance and the "Table of Equipment (TO&E)" for a sniper. If that assumption is true then you get 3 smokes - Defense or Offense. I would not think the Army would allow the programmers the lattitude to add or subtract from their doctrine just for the sake of the game.

Lastly, the use of Flash/Bang in a sniper game is stupid.

[Vicky23]

Guess i need to make some limitations on the use of FB's? Before that though will wait and see what you girls have to say on the issue.


I don't have much to say :lol:

HOWEVER, I would like to see something layed out about the rushup and use the SVD as an auto. I thought it was long range sniping. How would assult like it if we decided to rush up to them...they would feel cheated. If you don;t want to snipe, go play on an auto server. Otherwise, as ace had pointed out, our goal is long range sniping.


This is not a standard Nade-Fest, Quake shoot'em up, CS bunny hopping, kill someone from 2 feet, Nade-Launching-Machine gun toting rambo wanna-be server. We are trying to establish a place for long distance shooting (Sniper).


I don't see how you can justify your actions against what Ace wrote in Server Rules? Doesn't DoW member need to obide by this rule as well as the others. Rushing up and shooting from 2 feet is as annoying as someone on Defense using smoke or tossing nades.[/u]

[Major Kickass]

I think that falsh bangs should be able to be used on assault on maps such as Bridge, and Mountain Pass. Not for defense though. that would rid the balance of power on those servers.

[-(Oc)-Mavric]

I think 3 Smoke Should be allowed, but Flash bangs not, If the Idea is to be as real as possible Flashbangs are not issued to Snipers. Flashbangs are a CCC weapon and have no role in a snipers life...


I do have an Idea on the run up face to face problem, limit assult to the same piller as Defence or maybe to the defence tower I think would be a better limit but that is for you to chose, Although there will be some cases where it may happen, chances are more defenders will stay where assult can not be 2 ft from them, and that may solve that problem or at least cut it down...

[skippie]

Hey mavric,

im not sure how you mean that, but if we limit assault to for example tower, there is no way they can kill defense if its hiding in the very far trees?
Assault should be allowed to rush, but in my opinion not to do it, when still all defense is alive and just to kill all others from two feet away.
If there is for example 1 min left, and assault needs to kill the the last defender, ok with me, but not just at the beginning of the game.

Skippie

[-(Oc)-Mavric]

I do see your point, but I think once every one knows Assult can not come past the defence arch, I dought defenders will be back that far... Or maybe for the last min, assult can come fast that point but not before... Never said it was perfect, but at the same time if assulters stay back Defence cant get them eather. So What can you do other then tell D Not to hide by the objective... LOL

Once the new map comes out you will all be playing that one any way, it is a perfect map for sniping... :) I'll Go in my beta ver and take a few Screen shots for you guys, so you'll have an idea of whats comming... :)

[skippie]

You have an idea when the new patch with the map will be out? i heard something that it will be before end of november but dont know for sure.
Any way you could send us the river basin beta map? LOL. WOuld be lot better than screenshots dont you think. hehe.

We wont tell anyone.

Skippie

[IsZi]

Limtations on flashbangs? Hehe. Not really much that needs to be done there. Maybe take them away from Defense, but that would be it. All that really needs to be done, IMO, is to make it known that they are allowed. The number really doesn't need to be limited, since the soldier classes that do get them at the start don't get any more than 2. (I think.) Snipers and Automatic Riflemen don't get any. And, since most of our servers don't allow a CHANGECLASS to anything but sniper classes (Half of which don't even get smokes!), there's no way to get more than 2 after the start of the round unless you borrow from someone else.

[-(Oc)-Mavric]

The only problem with sending you the map is I would have to send you about 12 patches, and if they noticed you on line with it they would delete your account... :( Plus If I gave them to you and htey found out I would lose my account as well... So pics will have to do for now. I think it will be out soon any way, they are just fixing errors now, for a while they had the game all messed up, could not even join a server LOL, but most of the problems are fixed now, so it should be out soon... :)

[Bogey63]

You guys are still missing the point, Smoke is used to mark positions and provide cover. Flash bangs are generally use in urban combat ie.. buildings. I sniper doesn't give away his position for anything .Generally he waits... Takes the shot ... and moves so that he not detected. It you want to use flash bangs then mount is the thing for you. It you served you should know what genades are use for what objective.
Just a thought to add to the topic.
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: -=DoW=- Bogey63

[-(Oc)-Mavric]

That was my point, Flash is a CCC weapon... :)

[Bogey63]

It seems that we are the only ones that see the point. Sad isn't it!!!75% don't get the tatics :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: -=DoW=- Bogey63

[-(Oc)-Mavric]

That poll doesent represent the question correctly though, people may have voted yes just to keep smoke... I think you should be allowed 3 smoke, but no flash, that is the problem with the poll..

[deaths workers]

we should cuase it helps the chances of the other team if they need 2 hide im pretty sher thats what they use m for in real life i would say this cuase that sniper part in full metal jacket if u havent seen this movie i strongley sujest u get on that... and i cant spell for... :roll:

[deaths workers]

when u say about the svd as a close rang wepone by charging i was in that may that one time were we were doing that cuase u guys would cap use off first shot u got lol :roll:

[deaths workers]

may i ment map

[-(Oc)-Mavric]

lol :)

[IsZi]

Can we say... triple-post? You *do* know there's an *edit* button, right? I mean, sure I'm guilty of a double-post here and there myself, but triple is just a bit much.

[-(Oc)-Mavric]

I've done that before... LOL

[Bogey63]

That's a good point, smoke and flash bangs ... Let's put the issues together on the same bill .. sounds like a White House Lobbists Politics tatic to me . If you want this, then I get this... Poll the two issues but not together! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: -=DoW=- Bogey63

[IsZi]

Sorry, if the poll-maker happens to consider them relatively equal.

[Bogey63]

the poll maker may have saw it that way, ok . As a person taking the poll you can see as a double sided sword If flash bangs are so wanted then why is it you only see ONE person using them regularly. I won't say any names... :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: -=DoW=- Bogey63

[IsZi]

Yeeeeaaaahhh.... shaddap.

Y'know why there's only one person using them? Because it's such an unorthodox idea for these typse of servers. I really don't consider it wrong or anything... just unorthodox.

[Bogey63]

Did I say you.. Are , do you have a guilty conscious?
Just a thought ! Seeya Coby :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: -=DoW=- Bogey63

[Ace1988]

I don't see what the sense of this disscusion is, we are a sniper clan it says so right on our homepage!!!! Snipers are NOT issued FLASHBANGS, SMOKE, or any other type of GRENADES read the FM 23-10 :evil: . CobiWan like's them so Vicky23 Jumps on the BAND WAGON!!!! :shock: One other point that I want to make is that the poll is misleading, Flashbangs should have been kept seperate from Smoke, and Rushing. :? [size=7][b]Where do we draw the line?? Rocket launchers, Grenades, Auto's, hey I have an Idea, How about Nukes, or cruise missles???? If you want to have a poll how about one regarding an admin never being there when you need them??

-=DoW=- Ace1988

[-(Oc)-Mavric]

And the debate heats up..... :) lol

[IsZi]

Mav... dude! What happened to your avatar?

[-(Oc)-Mavric]

My web site was updated about a week or 2 ago, and they changed the IP for the site when they did it. and way the DNS is just now catching up, and it should be back later, my avatar is hosted on the site... :? I lost about 1-2 week of posts, New forum members, Etc as well :( I'm trying to get a copy of the DB hrom the old server so maybe it is not totaly lost but it may be... :( I'm wondering what else they lost....

[Acedeal]

Did you not do you own backups everyday, and put them locally?

You can run a cron job calling a php script to backup the mysql database, then it copies to the web-root.

Then just make a bat file to ftp open xxxx
mget *.sql.tar

[-(Oc)-Mavric]

I do back it up, but only once a week... :( That will ave to change...lol

[Ace1988]

I don't want to upset any one but I thought this was a Poll about Assault Rusher's,Flashbangs,and Smoke. I didn't relize it was about sever back-up problems. Shouldn't a new thread be started ?? :idea: :idea: :idea:

-=DoW=- Ace1988

[-(Oc)-Mavric]

I just answered the Question asked of me.... :) I think most have mande their comments on flash bangs and smoke, But by all means That is where we should continue.

[Ace1988]

I didn't want to ruffle any feathers, BUT since this poll is misleading anyway I guess it doesn't matter what we talk about :evil:

[Stingray]

:shock:
to me it is clear NOT to use flashbangs ... even though smoke make no sense to me on bridge ... the map is just too smal for that stuff !!

And 2nd ... i never got tought to use flash or smoke during my mil-service (sniper) ! ..... we did use it on regular trainings with Automatic weapons .. there it makes sense - it just does NOT FIT to a sniper !!! No Way !

I prefer having a Non-Sniper Server on DoW so that you guys can use flash and smoke (see weapons cache) !

What is the use for bringing all those tools in the game ? Do we need any admins .. how far do you want to change the rules from Sniper-Only ?!?

[-(Oc)-Mavric]

I understand your point, however in real life you would have a gilly, which gives a lot more conselment. The smoke just helps with that. but flash has no real use to me as a sniper unless I rush the E witha svd, which defets the point of haveing a sniper only. The new mao does not need any of that stuff, plenty of hiding places lots of open areas and ok cover every where, I still say RB is perfict for Sniper only... :)

[IsZi]

Oh... wait.... I was about to make a post about there being a need for a rule on flashbangs, but I just checked them. Looks like they *have* been banned now. *sigh* Bummer.

ACEDEAL: Next time you decide to change the rules, could you please E-MAIL US!!!! I just had a short discussion with Hunter on the -=DoW=- I server, after I nailed him with a flashbang.

HUNTER: COBY DO NOT USE FLASHBANGS!!!
ME: Why not? They're LEGAL!!!
HUNTER: I DON'T CARE!!!!!!!!
ME: I don't care if you care! Untill Ace says otherwise, I will use any legal weapon of my choice. End of discussion.

[Acedeal]

No need to E-Mail on Rule Changes,
That's what this site is for.


I know somewhere on the website, it states
"You will not be told of rule changes, please check here for Rules".

Due to Hotmail / Yahoo/ Relay denied, etc.. I will seldom do a mass email anymore..

All Info is on here somewhere :) :mrgreen:

[IsZi]

Wouldn't it at least be prudent to notify the admins?