Something you might like to know

[-(F^S)-Jerome]

I noticed that you post the pics now of people with no-fog, some with those highlighted "disco" textures.

I thought it would interest you to know that in many cases these images are the result of certain types of video cards. I know there are members here who can vouch for that.

In any case, I have been banning players wth these types of shots from our servers, hack or no hack, because of the unfair advantage. I have no way of knowing for sure if any one of them had ill intentions.

Anyway, i have voer a hundred different people with this same graphics problem but we dont post the names of the people banned for this because we cant really call them cheaters when most of them simply dont have the right video cards. they're banned, but not for cheating. (we post the names of EH users tho) I thought maybe you guys would want to spare the upset of some of the people seen in this forum. After all, I even have shots of a couple DoW members with these video cards, one of them was initially posted in out "hall fo shame" but removed because we got word from punksbusted admins that it "may very well be" a video card problem, so we give them the benefit of the doubt.

I just thought that you might want to put these ones in a separate forum, one that doesn't call them cheaters. Many of them probably aren't cheaters.

on a side note, several weeks ago when i suggested to one of the DoW admins that he should check the SS on a certain player that was in the server at the time, the resonse i got was that "We dont ban people just because they have bad video cards". I suppose you are banning them now then? presumably you ban all the name that show up in the wall of shame. But i see inconsistency in the titles of the posts... ex. fog disabled, graphics exploit, graphics HACK, etc etc...

i mean to summarize it I would just say, you may want to go over some of these and decide who is a cheater and what you call the effects you see.

Anyhoo, that's about all.. c ya

[-=DoW=- MauryMac]

We are aware of the difference Jerome, and we only post the ones that are using the exploit, and not the ones with incompatible graphics cards. There is a noticable difference. Thanks for your input though.

[FlipinAsian]

Punkbuster can now filter out most of those exploiters using that specific hack/exploit.

More info:
http://www.dow-sniper.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=5725

[Father-Time.]

Thanks for the info Jerome.

We only ban and place on the wall of shame when we are sure. None of ours are video card issuesm they are exploits pure and simple. We have had over 30 admins test these conditions under varyin g degrees, the players that re on the wall of shame are certainly exploiters at the very least.

Thanks again.

FT

[-(F^S)-Jerome]

Very well, then i have anotehr question.

On the punksbusted forums, dstom posted a couple examples. the one with no fog and everything else normal looking he says IS the exploit. I hear some video cards can simply turn off the fog.

I, myself, used to have a video card which would show you this picture. No fog, but everything else looked normal. And there was no option anywhere to enable the fog. This I personally know for a fact because I owned one of those cards. However, this was not the most recent version of AA. Is there confirmation from the Dev's that this problem is rectified, and there are no longer any cards that act this way? ( I am referring to the no-fog pics that do not have any highlighted textures.)

[Acedeal]

You talking about the old ATI cards? Their newest drivers fixed this, and also the AA engine was updated to take into account some of the old ATI card issues. When AA first came out it was written to use just the nvida graphics engine. Subsequent releases fixed that issue.
So, if using an old ATI card with outdated video drivers will still get you banned :) .

I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say, that anyone still using those old video card drivers should be banned for not updating their stuff :).. Only possible reason not to update would be so that you do not display fog ..

[-(F^S)-Jerome]

I see your rationale, Acedeal, and I agree with it. They should be banned. But it's not right to call them cheaters when many of them could just be using an older card and/or older drivers.

I mean the ones that father-time claims to know 'for sure' are exploits are not necessarily exploits. Noone's going to know how many of these people, let-alone which of these people, are cheaters by nature. Not to mention that BOTH of these types are found in your hall of shame, and they are all referred to as either "graphics exploit" "graphics hack" etc. Father-time claims that the screenshots selected were exploits plain and simple when it looks like that covers just about all no-fog shots. In other words, what kind of a no-fog picture do you have that "is not" an exploit, and is not posted somewhere in this hall of shame? I see both types posted here.

Here's one that you call a "graphics HACK"
http://www.dow-sniper.net/images/cheaters/dimano/dimano.bmp

And here's another you call a "graphics HACK"
http://www.dow-sniper.net/images/cheaters/fr_milkyNips/fr_milkyNips.jpg

And a third one that you also call a "graphics HACK"
http://www.dow-sniper.net/images/cheaters/c4/c4_CBreatoner.jpg

None of ours are video card issuesm they are exploits pure and simple. We have had over 30 admins test these conditions under varyin g degrees, the players that re on the wall of shame are certainly exploiters at the very least.

so which is a hack, which is an exploit, which could potentially be an innocent player? And which type of no-fog screenshot have you guys NOT included in this hall of shame? Looking at three different types of screenshots I still have shots from two of your members which DO fit into two of these three categories, but according to DoW it was a video card issue, according to PB it could have been a video card issue, so we took him out of the hall of shame. I even argued with our co-founders to get the ban lifted when he got a new card. He didnt care about the server, just his name in the hall of shame. But the shots from these two are no different from the others in the hall of shame. Please enlighten me as to who is or is not intending to cheat.

I don't post ANY of the no-fog hacks. I just ban them from the server and mission accomplished. Evil-hackers on the other hand get posted because everyone needs to know who the real scum is. But I still dont think it's appropriate to post the no-fogs. I mean, sorry, i dont think it's right to post them *in the wall of shame* and call them cheaters and lamers and this and that, you know the replies they get...

Anyway, I didn't want this to drag on into an argument like this; it doesn't really concern me anyway... I just wanted to address the inconsistency in your decisions as to who is "cheating".

I'll c u around.

[Acedeal]

Hack / Exploit / Out-dated Drivers / Bad Vid Cards
Bugs / Anomalies
I would venture to say that 99% of the people that play AAO have a clue as to what the bridge looks like. There must be 1000's of not 10's of thousands of Screen Shots of what the bridge looks like ie- fog , pretty thick fog.

I understand where you are coming from Jerome but should we debate semantics over the use of Bug / Hack / Exploit / Strange Anomalies?

You are probably correct that the SS with just the shiny edges is an old card with bad video drivers and should not be posted in this topic.

But more to the point is bringing to light the unfair advantage that these people have over the rest of the 99.9% of the AAO game playing public.
If posting a SS shot here of one of these people get's them to realize that they are not playing the game as it was meant to be played in Multi-player mode, then I guess we've done our Job. And maybe this 1% will stick to single player / training missions.

Is it our fault that this 1% can not read the required system prosperities? I think not. If they can not upgrade their system(s) to meet the minimum stated requirements, then as far as I am concerned they have an unfair advantage over the rest of the 99% of us. (and will be lumped into this category / topic here).

When you come on the -=DoW=- servers, we can almost without a doubt are going to try and enlighten / eliminate / get rid of this 1%. If you are not informing this 1% of the issues then they will continue to have an unfair advantage.

So should we debate semantics over the use of hack or exploit? If they are not aware that they have an unfair advantage does this make them a cheat?

ok, time for some stupid rationale
If I can see your cards while playing poker does that make me a cheat, or just a good poker player?
If I can see 100 meters further down the bridge then you, does that make me a good sniper or a cheat?

I know the bridge has fog, yet my vid card does not display it due to I refuse to update my video drivers or I have some POS video card installed. Does this make me a cheat or just a good sniper, AAO Player?

I would like to find just 1 person that could honestly tell me;
"Hey I did not know the bridge had fog"
and I'm not talking about some 10 / 13 yr old.
I'd be willing to bet you that 9 times out of 10, that when asked, they are going to say;
"Yea I knew it had fog, but my video card does not display it"
Does this make then a good AAO player or a cheat?

Back to the point..
As far as your other point about those 2 -=DoW=- members who's SS's that had the shiny edges. When you F^S first told us of this, you guys had no clue as to what this was. You informed us that they were using a Hack. A "no fog hack" to be precise.
We could find no info on this "No Fog Hack" at the time.

I think U2, sent someone over at F^S a note to get information on this, none was found. We also spoke to the 2 members in question and starting watching them.

A week or 2 later, figured out how to do auto PB screen shots. Once we discovered that these 2 users screen shots were consistently the same, ie - shiny edges, we banned them from playing on dow servers. They were banned until they either got new hardware, fixed the vid problem. If could not fix the vid problem then they were / are going to be removed from -=DoW=-. (but we did conclude it was an old vid card / on board POS video issue).

One member has upgraded his card, the other either fixed the issue / upgraded card or is still not playing the game at this time. (I'll check on this member later today) I think his time has expired to get this issue fixed) If not fixed, then you'll more then likey see his face up here along with the rest :)

Is their Screen shots posted here yet? no. Reason, we can tell them in real time that there is a problem --- read that as, we can contact them about it without having to hunt them down and send email, etc etc etc... and they are banned from playing on the servers until said issue is fixed.
(if you'll notice not many people contact us when their screen shots are posted) Why is that... They don't bother to read this the site to read the rules, etc,etc,,, So do we really care if they are on the wall of shame?

Only time someone contacts us about it, is when we hunt them down and inform them..

Anyway I am rambling on and on... Heading to Austin to pick up puppy in about 5 mins so not going to grammar / spell check as time is short.

I'll address any other concerns about my reasons, rationale when I return later today / this evening.

ps..
some of this my opinion, some my opinion as Leader of -=DoW=- :)

[Father-Time.]

Here's one that you call a "graphics HACK"
http://www.dow-sniper.net/images/cheaters/dimano/dimano.bmp

And here's another you call a "graphics HACK"
http://www.dow-sniper.net/images/cheaters/fr_milkyNips/fr_milkyNips.jpg

And a third one that you also call a "graphics HACK"
http://www.dow-sniper.net/images/cheaters/c4/c4_CBreatoner.jpg

Do these people appear to have an unfair advantage???


so which is a hack, which is an exploit, which could potentially be an innocent player? And which type of no-fog screenshot have you guys NOT included in this hall of shame? Looking at three different types of screenshots I still have shots from two of your members which DO fit into two of these three categories, but according to DoW it was a video card issue, according to PB it could have been a video card issue, so we took him out of the hall of shame. I even argued with our co-founders to get the ban lifted when he got a new card. He didnt care about the server, just his name in the hall of shame. But the shots from these two are no different from the others in the hall of shame. Please enlighten me as to who is or is not intending to cheat.

May i ask jerome, have you or anyone in your clan attempted to recreate these screen types? If so i am sure will you will aware of who is intending to cheat and who is not. Ultimately on your server - YOUR decision.


I don't post ANY of the no-fog hacks. I just ban them from the server and mission accomplished. Evil-hackers on the other hand get posted because everyone needs to know who the real scum is. But I still dont think it's appropriate to post the no-fogs. I mean, sorry, i dont think it's right to post them *in the wall of shame* and call them cheaters and lamers and this and that, you know the replies they get...


Your opinion on OUR cheat policy carries little or no weight here, which is no different to OUR opinion and the weight it carries within your clan. I know that sounds blunt, but i could not think of any other way to put it sorry. WE DO listen and respond to all questions about how we run/police and maintain our servers, however we pay the bills and we make the decisions. Sometimes it results in a :nade: and sometimes it doesnt.


Anyway, I didn't want this to drag on into an argument like this; it doesn't really concern me anyway... I just wanted to address the inconsistency in your decisions as to who is "cheating".


I am sure you didnt :wink: But if you look real close at the screenshots you will notice one CONSISTENCY in all the shots we have posted.

Everyone of those screenshots highlights An Unfair Advantage which is the reason "we name em and shame em" Our servers are fair, if you are having a good day you kill, if you are not you get killed.

Acedeal has gone into a lot of detail on the policy we enforce. The bottom line is if it gives you an unfair advantage then you are not welcome. No matter who they are!

To me (And ME only) this topic seems very pedantic due to the way all ingredients of a computer (GPU, CPU. Memory, FSB, Core speed aswell as ISP) make up its final display. The connotations are endless and almost impossible to differentiate between. So the theory we use is if you gain an unfair advantage over your peers, then you are unwelcome on our servers. Let us also think about the AAO community, if you join and are a part of this game i would say it is almost impossible to NOT know what the bridge should or does look like. The description from the game says it all as far as i can see

"Adverse weather conditions (High winds and fog) prevent air support"

[-(F^S)-Jerome]

I would like to find just 1 person that could honestly tell me;
"Hey I did not know the bridge had fog"
and I'm not talking about some 10 / 13 yr old .......... When you F^S first told us of this, you guys had no clue as to what this was. You informed us that they were using a Hack. A "no fog hack" to be precise.
We could find no info on this "No Fog Hack" at the time.


I have agreed with you from the start that they all have an unfair advantage and that's why i have every one of them banned. I understand your reasoning is that everyone should know that they're supposed to have fog, and that's why they are shameful. Is that right?

Okay well that is your judgement to make on your forums. I have no problem with that. But here are some notes for the record.

With regards to the first part of your quote, it was one of your 36-year-old's who said to me, after replacing his card, "I had no idea what i was missing". That's case #1. Case #2 is myself. In version 1.5 I had no clue that there was supposed to be fog. I didn't find out that it was there until well into version 2.0 when someone told me there had been fog all along... As far as I knew it was just something new they added with 1.6 and later.

With regards to the second part of the quote, this is something I would really like to clear up because I like to maintain integrity. When F^S first found these shots, (when I first found these shots) they were no different than the dozens of other ones. And I would like to emphasize that from the very beginning I have never said that they are a hack. It may or may not be, I said, and I have no way of knowing for sure. I was very polite about it and I made sure to include that this is not necessarily a hack of any kind, but more likely a hardware conflict. As well as that I made sure that in the ban file, for the reason I use the term "No-fog". I never call it a hack or a cheat.

The person who posted the -=DoW=- member's name in our Hall of shame DID call it a no-fog hack. The post was removed by someone else, then put back again by the other. It was not supposed to be made, it was made only by on person out of ill feelings towards -=DoW=-. The post was removed after a short time.


Whether you consider these people "cheaters" that's your decision. But many of them certainly are not using a "graphics HACK" as you put it, and many of them certainly are not intending to cheat and therefor are not shameful. If you wish to post the pics in the hall of shame, so be it. If you wish to call some of them hacks and some exploits, well thats fine.

I'm sorry for pursuing this topic like this. It's because of a conversation I had with a -=DoW=- admin a while ago. I mentioned the no-fog that someone on the server had, and the admin told me that "we dont ban just because someone has an older video card". The admin was saying it in such a way as to demoralize me for suggesting that the people get banned for an unfair advantage. I said, okay, they can choose not to ban these people. But then later when you got screenshots set up yourself and saw this "1%" of people without fog you decided to call it a hack and call them shameful. Obviously not all admins share the same views, I realize that. That's the only reason I'm going on about this... But I'm tired of talking about it at this point... I'll just drop it if I can, as I said it's not really my concern anymore.


EDIT - Now I see you have changed the topics all to "graphics exploit" rather than "graphics HACK"... I suppose that is all that needed to be done to rectify it...

[FlipinAsian]

fog disabled, graphics exploit, graphics HACK

Is it Kleenex, Puffs, or Tissue Paper?
Refrigerator, or Fridge? Same difference.

There is a consistant flaw in these screenshots, they have an unfair advantage. If caught on DoW servers with screenshots like these, for whatever the reason is, they can expect to be there too. It's been posted all over this forums and bumped a number of times to stay up there.

[-(F^S)-Jerome]

NO, its not the same difference, flipinasian. If it was all the same, then why wouldn't I call these two members of yours "hackers" or "cheaters"?

a hack is wrong, it's malicious.. hacking is going out of your way to cheat. fog disabled and fog exploit is suggesting they knowingly disabled it so that they could cheat.
it's all the same in that they all get banned because it's an unfair advantage. But they are very very different terms when used to determine a person't character. Any one of the above three suggest that the person was TRYING to have an unfair advantage. Although exploit is the most forgiving of these terms, only on the basis of acedlea's claim, that pretty much everyone knows they should have for and thus everyone in these screenies is intentionally cheating. Although that basis is not very solid either. Calling them all exploits is good enough for me, (not that I matter) but fog DISABLED and graphics HACK suggest much worse of a person's character.

[Stryker[v³]]

Interesting.

[Silent One (Banned)]

:_with_st:

[Stryker[v³]]

:_with_st:

Hey I'm not stupid you are... Nanner, Nanner, Nanner! :blæh:

[Silent One (Banned)]

:_with_st:

Hey I'm not stupid you are... Nanner, Nanner, Nanner! :blæh:

right back at ya!

[Stryker[v³]]

Nu--Uh Spammer! Loser! Stupid Head! I think its time to lock this post down! Lock it down... Down to the ground... Lock... Slap the cuffs on this!

[recon73]

Jerome, I think what we are trying to get across to you is... We are not judging the character of anyone here, we are saying these screenshots show an unfair advantage that will not be allowed on our servers. We pay the bills here, and thus make the rules. On another note, you won't find any, more popular, well maintained, professionally run, AA servers in the country.

[-=DoW=- MauryMac]

Or in the UK

:D

[-(F^S)-Jerome]

We are not judging the character of anyone here,

Here are the judgements:

Cheaters (The Wall Of Shame)

I would venture to say that 99% of the people that play AAO have a clue as to what the bridge looks like.


If they can not upgrade their system(s) to meet the minimum stated requirements, then as far as I am concerned they have an unfair advantage over the rest of the 99% of us. (and will be lumped into this category / topic here).

I know the bridge has fog, yet my vid card does not display it due to I refuse to update my video drivers or I have some POS video card installed. Does this make me a cheat or just a good sniper, AAO Player?

I would like to find just 1 person that could honestly tell me;
"Hey I did not know the bridge had fog"

and I'm not talking about some 10 / 13 yr old.
I'd be willing to bet you that 9 times out of 10, that when asked, they are going to say;
"Yea I knew it had fog, but my video card does not display it"
Does this make then a good AAO player or a cheat?

Only possible reason not to update would be so that you do not display fog ..

Sure looks like you're calling these people cheaters, intentional cheaters, and shameful cheaters.

Obviously they're banned for having an unfair advantage. That's what I told your admin in the first place before you started gathering screenshots. But they are not all cheaters.

In light of some of Acedeal's comments I rest my case, on the conclusion that clearly every human has different views and opinions and some of you feel its right to call them cheaters, some of you dont. But what I can say is that the fact is here they are being called cheaters.

I'm going to stop being the cheater's advocate here, and I'm going to take Xpendable's advice. So someone might as well make a final comment and lock up the thread cause this just isn't working out.

[-=DoW=- MauryMac]

You are probably correct that the SS with just the shiny edges is an old card with bad video drivers and should not be posted in this topic.


Hes agreeing with you here.


So should we debate semantics over the use of hack or exploit? If they are not aware that they have an unfair advantage does this make them a cheat?



Do you understand what the word semantics means? We arent going to debate this. You run yours your way, and we'll run ours our way.

I DID appreciate your input and concern, and took it as it was, until you started telling us what we should do. Now its just another flame to the fire, and will be remembered as such always.

[Hari Seldon]

Come on, let's stop this bickering. We all want to clean up the AA:O community, or atleast our little corner of it. I think it is great that F^S or [FS] is as committed to removing the lamers as we are. Maybe we approach it a little differently or maybe we label it differently, but it is with best intentions. Let's move on to something more productive.

In the immortal words of Todd Rundgren "We can't play this game anymore...but can we still be friends?"

[-=DoW=- MauryMac]

Hooah!

[-(F^S)-Jerome]

allright, allright. peace. :wink: I'm going to bed.

[-=DoW=- Wildman]

I'm happy you are going to bed, and hope this post is closed. As was said, we pay the bills here. Please do not talk policy with us, because we make the policy. Sorry I will have to stop now or I will go on and on. Just one more question. Do I have a SS of you using this or someone you know. I guess I'll spend today looking in my folders.

[Acedeal]

:)
Well,

made the round trip to austin yesterday 200 miles up / 200 miles back..

New Addition added to the -=DoW=- family.

Puppies full name is Rhapsody's Fidelity (girl)
Have not decided on a call name yet. Maybe Abby, Crystal, wife is leaning towards Raz.
I have a CD from the breeder that has about 80 / 100 pics. I'll pick a few put together something and post the new babies. "No Name yet" still has the ears taped up so she looks like a martian :lol:

Sterling 8 months
and Raz 2 + months
Official -=DoW=- members :)

[Hari Seldon]

Congrats on the new addition, Ace. I look forward to seeing the pics :D

[Acedeal]

here's a few that are on the breeders site
Little baby with the "Red or Rasberry Colored Color is ours"

http://www.rhapsodydobes.com/puppy_photos.htm

http://www.rhapsodydobes.com/puppy_reindeer_photos.htm

http://www.rhapsodydobes.com/images/litterbox/red_reindeer.jpg

[Hari Seldon]

Now this thread is finally taking a productive turn :lol:

[Father-Time.]

:)
Well,

made the round trip to austin yesterday 200 miles up / 200 miles back..

New Addition added to the -=DoW=- family.

Puppies full name is Rhapsody's Fidelity (girl)
Have not decided on a call name yet. Maybe Abby, Crystal, wife is leaning towards Raz.
I have a CD from the breeder that has about 80 / 100 pics. I'll pick a few put together something and post the new babies. "No Name yet" still has the ears taped up so she looks like a martian :lol:

Sterling 8 months
and Raz 2 + months
Official -=DoW=- members :)


:_eyes: Cannot wait to see. :banger:

[-(F^S)-Jerome]

Just one more question. Do I have a SS of you using this or someone you know. I guess I'll spend today looking in my folders.

Oh that's real polite. The answer to your question is NO.

[-(F^S)-Jerome]

Gentlemen, I had a discussion with another member of FS, a close friend of mine, and that's why I am making this reply.

Some of you feel I came in here the other day to tell you guys how to post your cheaters. I've said that I didnt want the thread to drag on like it did and I didnt want it to get so involved.

I have always been one to put our past incidents behind me, namely the history between us. I want you all to know that I was not trying to come in here to tell you guys what to do or what you're doing wrong. I forgot that there are still alot of emotions in people, and I didn't mean to stir them all up again. I apologize for any upset I have caused... This thread wasn't supposed to take the turn that it did. Like Hari Seldon said, we're all for the same cause here, I wasn't trying to stir up any past issues or cause any problems...

[Acedeal]

Did not stir me up.
I was just running short on time the other day.. had to travel to austin.

So no worries here. We appreciate your concerns and you did bring up some valid points.